Misguided Podcast Myths
Episode Show Notes
On this PodOn episode, we chat with Anna McClain, a podcast producer and consultant for organizations and individuals. Podcasting is not about following a formula, but about using it to expand your personal and professional limits. Today, you’ll learn about podcasting’s true magic and why an internal podcast could unfold a handful of opportunities for any company — despite its budget and resources. Listen now to learn how a thoroughly planned podcast could engage your employees, humanize your brand, and build a genuine connection with your clients. All you have to do is ask yourself: Why not?
Jump straight into:
(00:45) - How podcasting is meant to break the old school rules and how to boost your creativity - “In podcasts, you just have so much freedom, you can really think outside the box.”
(10:52) - On internal podcasting and why companies should embrace it as a modality - “Companies are understanding that frequent clear communication with their employees is absolutely critical right now.”
(19:13) - How to build an influential culture, produce trackable stats, and bring your collaborators into the conversation - “There’s a million ways to recognize employees. It’s not just a one-sided thing, it’s a lot more engaging than that.”
(24:38) - Quantity vs. quality: how many listeners are enough? - “Not everyone is going to be your potential audience, and that could be true for an internal podcast too.”
(29:32) - How brands can team up with indie podcasters - “The brand doesn’t have to be the creative force behind the show.”
(31:53) - How major historical events can give birth to evergreen content, empower previously silent voices and create spaces for vulnerability - “I think a lot of podcasters can take this time to reflect on what they’ve been doing and switch it up and use it as a chance to change things up.”
(37:41) - Pitching a podcast to your organization - “Any organization with a budget can make it happen, it’s just a matter of getting creative.”
Resources
Connect with Anna through LinkedIn
PodOn is hosted by TJ Bonaventura and Julian Lewis, founders of the full-service podcast company based in San Francisco, StudioPod. If you want more details on how to fully record and produce your podcast with our services, you can reach us at http://studiopodsf.com, send us an email at info@studiopodsf.com or contact us through our social media channels as @studiopodmedia. Music by GaryOAKland.
Episode Transcript (via Rev.com)
Anna McClain:
I think it's very daunting to look at the idea of podcasting and say, there are a million podcasts out there. How am I going to stand out. You don't have to stand out against the backdrop of 1 million podcasts.
Julian Lewis:
This is the PodOn Podcast.
TJ Bonaventura:
We're your host, TJ Bonaventura, that's me and Julian Lewis.
Julian Lewis:
That's me. As founders of a podcast media company. We had to start a podcast.
TJ Bonaventura:
So, join us each episode as we and our guests drop knowledge on podcasting for you, the curious and scrappy podcaster.
Julian Lewis:
Welcome to another episode of the PodOn Podcast. Today, we have a special guest, Ms. Anna McClain. Anna, want to go ahead and introduce yourself?
Anna McClain:
Yeah, thanks for having me. My name's Anna McClain and I have my own small podcast production and consulting business in Portland, Oregon. Yeah.
Julian Lewis:
So, we first heard about you on the Pop Podcast and we definitely wanted to reach out and just so people know the Pop Podcast is the podcast on private podcasting. And I remember thinking like, man, JP has a podcast called Pop. Technically we do too, right? Because it's a PodOn Podcast and that's also pop, he just has an extra P. But on that podcast, you were talking a lot about internal podcasts because that's right in the wheelhouse of what storyboard does. But before we dive into how organizations can launch podcasts both internally and externally, how did you even get into podcasting in the first place? And then how did you decide, I want to do this as a consultant on my own?
Anna McClain:
Yeah. So, I think like most podcasters, since it's pretty much very young industry, I got into this in a roundabout way. I started out in college radio and really thought I wanted to go into this kind of music radio world. And after interning with some stations, public and community stations, I got hooked up with a record label in Portland and ended up producing their podcast for them, their a music business podcast, as well as doing some social media and PR and radio work for the label itself. So, that was kind of my first foray into podcasting specifically. And then I just fell in love with it as this medium where gatekeepers weren't as much of a player I guess, and this really accessible medium. So, then I started picking up some clients on the side, just due to the newness of the medium.
Anna McClain:
And this was 2015, so post serial and that benchmark for the podcast boom. But what I found is that I was working as a producer and I found that a lot of clients really needed more hands on holistic help beyond audio and content production. This world without gatekeepers also means that you're navigating this open industry in this way. So, yeah, I just found myself helping client in a lot of different ways and wearing a lot of different hats, I think as a lot of podcasters do. And it's just developed from there.
TJ Bonaventura:
You mentioned gatekeepers there a couple times, given your background in radio, and I'm very curious to hear your perspective on this, because I know Julian and I have our own thoughts on it. What is the biggest difference between working in radio and creating a podcast or having that idea of wanting to create a podcast?
Anna McClain:
Yeah, so most of my extent of my work in the radio world was really music related. And that's part of what I loved about college radio is there were no gatekeepers, nobody telling us what to do. It was kind of this DIY ethos and then yeah, I interned at a couple of different stations. One was a large public radio station and the other was a large community station. And I loved both of my experiences there. But I think it's just inherently, there's a long history of different kinds of standards. There's a lot more bureaucracy and there a lot more maybe for better or worse voices in the mix. And I think with a podcast you just have so much freedom and I have to actually tell a lot of my clients now, you can be more creative with what you're doing here.
Anna McClain:
You don't have to adhere to what you've heard on NPR as great as all that stuff is. You can really think the box here. And one of my formative, after I was in the, thinking I was going to do this radio thing, when I was working on the music business podcast, it was also a radio show. So, it was this interesting balance of creating it as a podcast first and then distributing it to, I think we had nine different and community stations that we were distributing to. And just the standards, not in a bad way, but even just the episode needed to be 59 minutes and 30 seconds long exactly. Things like that. And those little things can really add up I think for people who just want to kind of get their message out there and get their voice heard. So, yeah, now I'm just fully in the podcast world and I love it.
TJ Bonaventura:
I love that specific part you talked about when it comes to creativity. A lot of times we get questions from our clients, I'm sure you do too, where they may say like, how often should I release? How long does it need to be? Can it be this, can it be that? And a lot of times our answer is why not? Is that what you want it to be? There is no formula here of success. You see consistent different structures, you see consistent types of editing styles or hosting styles. But we try to get them to think outside the box, because this is such a piece of clay that can be molded in so many different directions. And I think that's something that Julian and I absolutely love about the industry and where it's going. And I say it in almost every podcast that we have, that we put out. But it's in its toddlership right now, it's past the infancy. We should do like a dollar jar every time I say that.
Julian Lewis:
Definitely.
TJ Bonaventura:
But it's still so new and everyone's like, oh, they're blowing up. It's like, ah, didn't know it's still continually, it's still a lot of uncertainty yet. And we see a lot of big companies like iHeartRadio getting involved, and there are big players in there. And so I think there's a lot of fear in the old school podcasters, if you will, of these old heads coming in and trying to turn it into radio, which is something that I really hope doesn't happen. But it's really good to hear that you have the same thought process of having your clients think outside the box.
Anna McClain:
Absolutely. Yeah. I think you're right on the point with it, with just all those seemingly small details that you would think there would be this real standard that you have to adhere to with frequency, length, all these things. I think there's a lot of misguided myths out there in the podcasting world about those things. And I just encourage anyone who wants to start a podcast. Don't feel like you have to adhere to anything that anyone's doing right now. And on your point with the big players getting into it. I feel optimistic about it. Overall, I think the profile of podcasts have been raised so much in the last five years really. And I just see especially for organizations and businesses who are, are getting into podcasting and especially with internal podcast you can almost ignore some of that stuff that's going on. It's really about you, your brand, your employees and the existing communications that you're already engaging in. So, yeah, like I said, I'm optimistic about it.
Julian Lewis:
That's great. And one thing that I want to touch on for the creativity piece, are there any specific things that you have to say or exercises that you give them so that they will think outside of the box? Because I think it's easy to point to, like here are some examples of podcast that you model off of, and then they could follow that guideline. But are there any exercises or things that you've said to brands or even individuals that are like, try this and then see how it works? I'd love to hear your perspective on that.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. A lot of the shows I work on are interview style, which I think in the podcasting world can get a little bit of shade for being somewhat already done. But I think there's a lot of return for organizations and individuals who want to have these interesting conversations with people. So, what I really encourage every client to do is to really, really, really lean into their niche. To identify that niche and see it as their superpower, because that's another thing that, back to the radio piece, what you can do in this podcasting world is really have a podcast about anything. And I work with a B Corp Executive Recruiter, and that's not necessarily a podcast that's going to be number one on Apple, but it's a great podcast. And he gets to have these great conversations and be this thought leader in his industry.
Anna McClain:
And part of leaning into your niche is really any podcaster, whether you're with an organization or you are an individual, or you're a hobbyist. I'm sure you all have heard this advice a million times, it's identify your audience, identify why you're the person who should be making this podcast, identify what the value is that you're bringing to people. So, I have just the short list of questions with those questions included and a few more before we even get into the branding, the name of the show, the frequency, all of those things, it's really about identifying and answering those questions. And that serves as this touch point along the entire process.
Anna McClain:
When you're thinking about the scope of an episode, does this go back to that value piece for the listener or the audience? And I think that can also spark a lot of creativity in people and I'm working on more and more short episodes. And I think those constraints people want to create, like you all are a 15 minute episode or even a five minute episode. And having that box to work within actually can push people to really get into the content editing side of things, which can create a really interesting product.
Julian Lewis:
I think the restrictions of 15 minutes, that was something that TJ sprung on me and I was like damn, I like to talk. But to your point let's get to the point, let's find a creative way to get there faster. And I think our last episode was nine minutes. And so it's like when we put those constraints on ourselves, like we can start to be more creative and be more concise and to the point. So, building off of that, we're talking a lot about up brands and whether it be an internal or external podcast, what are the biggest needs that you're seeing from your clients in terms of where you're actually able to help beyond just the title of producer, which I know could be a catchall for a lot of different things.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. I think in the broad scope of things, just being someone who can be a trusted source when questions come up is the biggest value that I'm providing at this point. I think there's this, everyone at this point, not everyone, but most people, especially people who want to start podcasts have listened to podcasts before. They have an idea of what they want to do. They have an idea whether it's right or wrong of what goes into it. So, really my biggest value add, I think is really embedding myself with people where I'm meeting them where they're at. I have clients who are super tech savvy, they understand all the equipment, they could put together an equipment list themselves. And then I have clients who have never used a microphone before. So, it's really about meeting them where they're at and just trying to tailor what I'm offering to actually provide good service to everyone I'm working with.
Anna McClain:
I think a lot of podcast companies have sprung up and some of them are really awesome. And some of them aren't necessarily customized is your boutique and their great services. But I think for someone who is new to this market and this industry, and maybe doesn't have some of the traditional production skills or necessarily understand what goes into it, having a conversation with someone who is being very transparent about what goes into this process and the value that they're actually going to provide. That's where I really see myself falling and other people too. And it sounds like you guys are in that camp too.
TJ Bonaventura:
We definitely are. And I think the thing that consistently shocks me or doesn't shock me, but would catch me by surprise is the lack of time that's needed to create even a 15 minute episode or 30 minute episode, and helping anyone who wants to start a podcast really get to the point of, you need to dedicate resources to this. And it's not necessarily monetary resource. It's the time, it's going through restructuring the podcast. So, yes, they think about the things that you've mentioned, cadence, how long it should be. What kind of style. But going into like, okay, let's come up with a plan.
TJ Bonaventura:
What is the value? What is the purpose of this podcast? What is it going to provide the listener? Who is the listener? Are you finding with your clients that fall into the organizational scope that they're just not understanding the purpose of the podcast? How can you get them to the point where like, okay, I want to create a podcast where we're interviewing our leadership team. "Okay. Well, why are you doing that?" I think helping them understand why they're doing it and who's going to listen will ultimately allow them to understand how long it can go for and how many resources they can dedicate. And then ultimately the big ROI question of what is it going to drive to the organization?
Anna McClain:
Yeah, I think the ROI is a huge piece of it, especially when you're working with business people who run on these things. Understandably so. And I think a podcast ROI can be, it's very broad and it's very deep too. But as far as, yeah, working with my clients, I think bringing that niche piece back into it really helps them to help own in on that value. I think when I first start working with a lot of clients, there's these questions of, "Oh, well, what about Apple or Spotify? What about this or that?" And I have to steer them away from it and really set expectations around you're not necessarily going to be number one on Apple, but you will get these amazing benefits out of starting a podcast.
Anna McClain:
And I think those benefits have traditionally not been as clear to people. I think there's this allure of podcasting that's really great and it gets people in the door, but there's this whole other world to the value that a podcast can bring an organization. And I think interestingly enough this pandemic has really started to shift that because companies are understanding more and more that frequent, clear communication with their employees is absolutely critical right now. And podcasting is a really amazing tool accomplishing that. So, it's seen as less this unconventional tool and more as a practical tool now. So, I think there's more of an openness with different brands and leaders around that.
TJ Bonaventura:
And we've heard some interesting concepts around podcasting from that same perspective when thinking about the pandemic, is they can't, like for example, marketing team came to us, like we can't do events, so we need to figure out a way to do events and we have an events team. So, let's create a podcast as a way to drive new leads to our company to then ultimately drive the ROI that way. So, they're thinking about it a little bit differently. We can't do events so why don't we just do a number of different podcasts that will substitute the events and the event budget that we have. And that way we can drive more customers that way, which I think is a great idea and something I never really thought of. But it's just one way where people are starting to think outside the box and definitely different companies here in Silicon Valley are thinking about it.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And one note that I was just going to add to that TJ is depending on the size of the company, there are restrictions to the amount of people that you could have law in any sort of, let's say, Google Hangout, for instance. And so what ends up happening is you're having to then stream it. And so you're not getting that engagement that you would, if it weren't streamed, it was just like a shared screen. Then somebody has to think about like, man, I have to go back to my computer, sit in front of my computer and watch this training if I missed it. But it's like, there's such a value in being able to free your employees to take a lap around the block while they listen to something, that frequent clear communications that, Anna, that you were referencing.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. It's that asynchronous component that I think is so unique to podcasts and doing away with, I think, video is amazing and a lot of instant. But if you're catching up on a training or you're catching up on a webinar or just a meeting, maybe you don't need the video component. And employees are so overburdened right now, it's a really, really hard time to be working from home at all and having more control over your time, multitasking, et cetera, it's the least companies can be doing for their employees right now. It's make it easy for them to check these boxes and make it engaging too. A podcast is unparalleled, you guys know this, the familiarity people feel with the host of a podcast is so strong. And like you said, depending on the size of the company, some of these employees may have never met the host or they might be a high up leader in the organization and it really can humanize and create the feeling of that one-on-one connection without actually having a phone call or a meeting one on one.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And I think to that, like humanizing of that leader within the company, when they're on video, I imagine that they're a little bit more apprehensive of like where their hands are, what they're doing, what they're saying. But when they're in a room by themselves and they're just in front of a mic and they're not having to look at themselves or a large group of people, I imagine that in that moment they're allowed to be more human. And so it's a benefit both for the employees, but also for that leader to really be more human to your employees and let them hear your voice and get to know you a little bit better as they're taking a stroller around the block or getting their workout in.
Anna McClain:
And just back to something TJ said about the idea of this events centered podcast. I think one of the things that organizations can really think about when they're thinking about this is, or consider when they're thinking about this is that they don't have to do everything, accomplish everything in their podcast. Narrowing down and saying, we just want to fill this gap that was created by not being able to have events, or we just want to give a daily run down to our employees about what's going on in the company, or something totally out there. Every organization has a communication strategy that's already in place. How can a podcast expand on that and support that? I think that's really what companies need to be thinking about when they're considering a podcast for their strategy. It's not a standalone piece.
TJ Bonaventura:
I couldn't agree more. Thinking about it as a modality. Like not thinking of it as the center piece of what you're trying to do around that communication strategy. What is it going to be part of the larger benefit of who was going to be listening, whether it's going to be potential clients or whether it's going to be employees internally. I was actually having this thought the other where I was thinking about from a training and onboarding perspective, where if you wanted to use podcasting as a modality in that way, a great opportunity to do that would be around setting the culture. So, I think we've all been in these situations, I know I have. I have where you're going on site for training and the first or the first half day is you're spending, learning about the company where it came from, what the culture is, how it came about, what are the idea, all this, that, and the other about, the basics and the concepts of the organization.
TJ Bonaventura:
To me, I feel like that would be a great opportunity to convert that into a podcast, an internal podcast, maybe potentially external. But most likely internal. And I think the benefits would be twofold. One that's something that can be listened to outside of a pandemic world, you listen to that on the bus, train or plane on the way in. So, you already have that background. Two you're setting the standard of podcasting as being a part of the culture. So, as you have people join the organization, now you have them downloading a private at app like Storyboard, or maybe it's something that's been customized for that organization. And so now that new employee knows whatever they want to listen to something or get something that's being produced via podcast, they know where to go to get it. So, you're setting that groundwork of how the company is communicating with their employees.
Anna McClain:
Totally. I think hiring too has been so disrupted right now that ... Yeah. Any tools that again, can humanize and convey that culture and make someone feel, it comes back to employee engagement, which I know every company out there is wanting to accomplish. Engaged employees are way more successful. The companies are way more successful when they have engaged employees. And I think podcasting is one piece of that. You can have podcasts that feature employees and employee accomplishments, that feature teams who are doing different things there are a million ways to recognize employees and really bring them into the conversation. It's not necessarily just a one sided talking at you kind of thing. It's a lot more engaging than that.
TJ Bonaventura:
And it gets back to the question of why not. I think oftentimes these leaders who are, or those within companies who want to start a podcast, well, we got to do it like this, because this is how the industry has done things in the past. We can't do something like serial. We can't do something like this other podcast. It's like, well, why not? Why can't you create a fun serialized podcast or put your little play on it where the benefit is the company is learning or the employee is learning something about the company or the end result is they need to take a survey and it's some sort of end result that can be tracked.
TJ Bonaventura:
I think that's a big part of the ROI. Like, okay, well, you need to answer this survey. You need to fill out this form or whatever it may be. Those are things that you can add in the show notes that show value there. Again, that's where I think, again, the toddlership comes into play and really getting these creative people in the communications department to think outside of the box and find those people within the organization who could really be that gem of a host that would really engage anybody that they're talking to.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I think that point about the ROI and specifically the call to action is a place where I really, really encourage clients to be creative. There's no reason to tell people, to find your podcast on Apple or to leave you a review. It's really from that infancy side of podcasting. Where can you really put that value in the call to action? What do you want people to do next? That's huge. And yeah, I just wanted to echo that.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And I don't want to make this, I know we you've said Storyboard or JP multiple times throughout this, and I don't want to make this like a branded podcast for him. But one thing I do want to say is, I think it was just yesterday, they just released the ability for you to comment at a particular timestamp. And it's like, you can get employees engaged and to comment and like, or whatever it is, like engage with your content and know what's working, what's not working. And we talked a little bit about that when we were talking about the Goals podcast. Because you could see where there's drop off, but now if somebody can say like, "hey," at the five minute mark, "I really loved learning about this. Can we go deeper into this?" And then you can start to craft your podcasts and your content around what your employees are asking for.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I think something that's important for every company who's getting into this is those performance indicators, if you will, whether it's the call to action that someone's clicking on and they can track that. There's always that hunger for really robust stats in podcasting and I think it's getting a lot better, but it's always one of those expectations I sat with my clients right off the bat. It's like, you're not going to get everybody's email necessarily, unless you're maybe going through a different service or RSS feed. But it's that broadening of the ROI, which is both tangible and intangible. So, that's always an interesting conversation, is what are "good stats" for a niche podcast? And I think it really depends on every different case.
TJ Bonaventura:
It's also depending on and understanding the difference between quantity of listeners and quality of listeners. This is more for brand awareness type of podcast out there where it's, well, if you're talking about something that's specific to your company and you're in B2B sales or you're a software here in Silicon Valley, you're not going to get the hundreds of thousands, millions of listens. You may get like hundreds of listens, but know what? If those hundreds of listens are people that are coming back and time and time again, that's going to be more valuable to you than broadening the scope. I think that's where, like you said, leaning into your niche, leaning into what's bringing value to you and what's important to the overall goal of the podcast in terms of what you're trying to accomplish as a company.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And TJ, to that point, I worked for an agency back in the day and there's this large insurance brand that was trying to compete with the likes of Flo on Progressive in Mayhem for All State. And this is back when Facebook was all about driving up likes and how many likes can you get? You know what I mean? And with podcasting to your point about the quality versus the quantity, you can tell the quantity easily. But the quality is all about how deep of a conversation are you able to have with your listeners if it's a branded podcast or with your employees, if it's an internal podcast and making sure that not only are you monitoring based off of that quality, but then you're engaging back with them. Whether it be like responding back to things that they're asking for, or starting to surface some of that content that they really enjoy the most.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. And it's understanding, what is the goal that you're even working towards in the first place? And that goes for internal and, or like external public branded podcasts. What is a hundred thousand listeners going to really get you? Maybe your goal is really to bring on new clients and have interesting conversations and gain some brand awareness. And that doesn't all necessarily have to fall under this quantity side of things. It could really be under the quality side. And it is about capturing maybe more of a percentage of your potential audience, understanding who is your potential audience. Not everyone is going to be your potential audience and that could be true for an internal podcast too. Maybe there's one team who the company wants to focus on and have this podcast relate to, or maybe it's just a podcast that really is about surveying remote employees. Or the niche part is exactly what you just said about the value that you see in it, but also the value that your listeners or audience are going to get out of it.
TJ Bonaventura:
I think too often, and it's many times marketers are the one leading the charge for podcasting both internally and externally. They think about it as like a drip campaign. And that's how they've got brought up with a new organization. Like, okay, well, the more people we get, the more we can get them down the funnel, the more people that we can convert. It's not necessarily like that. I really think podcasting is down the funnel type of process of you have people who are already committed to your business or learning about your business and already thinking about working with your business, use that and reach them. Really lean into how you're going to help them and then they'll become customers or maybe they'll renew with you or whatever. I think that's really where you need to think about podcasting from an organizational standpoint. I don't know if you agree with that or not, Anna.
Anna McClain:
Absolutely. I think that's one of the reasons that podcasting has been such a huge success in the financial services industry, because it really allows financial advisors to show potential clients what they're like. You're working really closely with this person. It gives a sense of familiarity to potential clients who might already be thinking about working with you. It also goes into the discoverability piece of it where I don't see Spotify, Apple, some of the big players, not to keep calling them out by name, but they can handle it. I don't see them as valuable discoverability tools for my particular clients. I always encourage clients to go, where is your audience already living? Where are they spending their time? Maybe they don't even know what a podcast is yet, but they might know about your brand, or they might know about this industry specific magazine or this industry specific event. It's really about actually thinking about where your audience is.
Anna McClain:
And that goes all the way down the line to that closing call to action. If you just want some brand awareness out of it, what are you asking people to do at the end? If you want a new client out of it, maybe you're asking people to sign up for your newsletter or website or contact you for additional services. Clients don't need to think about it as swimming in this huge pool. You can think about it as swimming in your industry and being an industry leader in the podcasting space. So, I think that's important for new clients to understand. I think it's very daunting to look at the idea of podcasting and say, there are a million podcasts out there, how am I going to out? You don't have to stand out against the backdrop of one million podcasts.
Julian Lewis:
That's exactly right. I guess my question for you and we talked about the iHearts of the world, Spotifys, Apples of the world, for an individual podcaster, do you see that there's a value for brands entering the space and creating their own podcast? And if so, what do you think that value is?
Anna McClain:
For brands entering the space. As far as like these trying to be in this like a player in these bigger things. I think that they can be very successful, but I guess it still goes back to the, what are you hoping to get out of this? If you're Squarespace and creating a podcast, that's a different starting point than maybe a different brand. I think that there is an opportunity for brands to be the presenting sponsor, if you will, for maybe a more creative show. There are some amazing voices out there that need that financing and need to also keep their creative control. I think that's something that's really important about podcasts. It doesn't have to feel canned and it doesn't have to be stifled in this certain way. And brands can have this opportunity maybe to back an independent podcaster. Not that, that would make them in anymore, but that's just me riffing on it. But I think there is opportunities for ... The brand doesn't have to be the creative force necessarily behind the show. I guess it's the bottom line.
Julian Lewis:
I think you answered that much better than I asked it. But I think the value of more and more brands seeing the value of potentially starting a podcast is that there are plenty of powerful and strong creators that are doing it on their own. And they can really partner together to really up level the entire industry. And that's potentially more ad dollars or more sponsorship dollars or more partnership deals for that individual contributor as much it is for the brand. So, I think it's only going to help the overall industry.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I will just add a note, because it's been in the news lately and coming from the music industry, I think it's really important for independent creators to really hold onto their IP around this stuff. And for brands who are looking to partner with individuals around podcasting to be responsible about those contracts too. And it really is more of a partnership and you don't need to necessarily own that IP to make a great podcast and be part of a great show.
TJ Bonaventura:
Couldn't agree with you more on there. I'm glad you mentioned that. I want to pivot real quick and talk about, we've touched on creativity a bunch. What are some of the creative ways that you've seen your clients leverage podcasts? And you don't need to go into specifics, but maybe like how they go to structure it, doing something a little bit different and outside of the box, as you mentioned a little earlier.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. Well, I can talk about one very specific example that, I mean, it's just an episode that was released today that I was working on. And speaking of boxes and constraints, this pandemic has created a lot of them. So, that executive hiring podcast I was just talking about, we did a panel recently where we had this whole team who virtually hired someone, basically talking through the process. It was a little bit of a departure from our usual format, but we took the chance to say, let's do something different. And I think that's something any podcaster can do is just say, I want to switch it up a little bit this week, try something new, see how it goes. And especially when there are wild things happening in the world, it's really important. And I think the last few months have really presented a lot of opportunities for that.
Anna McClain:
We were talking ahead of this a little bit about just some of the things that are going on in the world and how podcasters can respond to that. And something that I've seen a lot with people and clients and have been navigating for the first time in the last, in my career in podcasting, we have these two hugely world changing events happening right now. And something that comes up a lot with podcasters is how do I balance timeliness with evergreen content? And what I'm just really encouraging my clients to do is not see them as mutually exclusive right now. We're living in a, like I said, a changing time.
Anna McClain:
And it's really important I think from my perspective, at least I think every niche is being affected by everything that's going on right now. And there's something to be said on every podcast. Maybe not an audio drama, but I think there's a lot of creative possibilities there. And I think a lot of podcasters can take this time to reflect on what they've been doing and maybe switch it up and use it as a chance to change things up.
Julian Lewis:
I love that you brought up the current in events versus evergreen because people see them as separate things, but to your point, they're not. And in every current event, there's a lesson to be learned that can be evergreen. And with what's going on right now we talked about the pandemic with all the racial injustice issues that are happening in the world, this is really a good opportunity for a company to uplift some of the voices that have been silent or have been underrepresented and really allow for them to come forward and really speak to that. And I honestly haven't seen a brand do that quite yet. But I definitely think it's something that they should really think about.
TJ Bonaventura:
Or just have leadership address any issue through a recording. It's one thing to see a public notice. I think we've all experienced different organizations and how they've responded to everything that's going on. And it's either going to be a public statement or it's an email that's sent in. Who knows who wrote that? Who knows if that's really what leadership stands for? Why not can make that a podcast? Why not make that an internal message where people can actually hear the inflection in someone's voice, where they can get more of a reality of what they're dealing with? And that's racial injustice, that's pandemic, that's dealing with everyone being remote. It's working moms and dads with kids at home. These are all things that everyone are dealing with. And again, audio empowering, clear audio is such a good way to get across that message versus some sort of what could potentially come across as a tone, deaf message via email.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I think it opens, having real conversations with real voices, opens people up to, especially on the racial justice, these conversations really require some vulnerability, especially when you're looking at brands and organizations who actually want to make change for the better. And I think having those conversations over a podcast is a great medium for that. And even outside of that, I think there are opportunities for even like DEI trainings and things through podcasts, something as dry as that. But there could be real actual conversations there. And I think I just started working with the client and part of the catalyst, I think for them to start their podcast, they're in the nonprofit world, was due to an incident, not within their organization, but with another organization and wanting to have real conversations around that and have a space for it where they weren't finding that space in their existing communications. So, I thought that was really, really interesting. And I really respect that inclination, I guess, trying to think of a better word.
TJ Bonaventura:
It's a great way to open up the hood behind a company and really let yourself be raw and vulnerable. I think oftentimes companies don't do that. They got to be buttoned up. They have a board, they have advisors, they have objectives, KPIs, numbers they got to hit quarter over quarter. But sometimes being vulnerable and sometimes letting yourself be open to criticism is actually good and will lead to more of that employee engagement and empowerment to, you know what, I'm really happy I worked for this company. Because while maybe they made a mistake, they owned up to it and this is how they owned up to it, or know what they believe in doing this. And this is how they're making the change. And those are things again that sometimes they can get lost in the email or they can get lost in just everyday conversation. And if you can really get the raw emotion of whomever is making that message is going to go leaps and bounds over any other medium, in my opinion, at least.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. The human element that we were talking about earlier. You assume it's a lot less vetted by PR and policy team when it comes from the voice versus from the written note. I want to quickly pivot, I know we're running long on time. And for this podcast, I think there's been so much valuable information that anybody could take from this and run with. And specifically for that curious and scrappy podcaster at an organization. How should they advocate to bring it to their organization? Or what can they do to really say to their head of X, like, hey, we should be doing a podcast?
Anna McClain:
Yeah. I think there are two main points there. One is what we've already touched on. As pitching it as part of the organization's larger communication strategy. It's much less daunting to think about starting a podcast when you already have a newsletter, a blog. There are already tie-ins, there's already work that your teams are already putting in to create great content. A podcast can be one more step in that. And the other side of it is, and this ties into budget too. I think for bigger companies, it's less of a concern, but no matter what you can ... and back the standards piece too, and the creativity piece actually, it's really figuring out how you can leverage your resources and your existing team to create a podcast. And it is very doable. It's just a matter of identifying everyone's skills and strengths and really figuring out, okay, what do we have covered and what do we need help with? And I think that's huge because any organization with any budget can make it happen. It's just a matter of getting creative about how you're doing it.
TJ Bonaventura:
I love the newsletter point of view that you mentioned, because this is, I had a conversation with a friend who is in charge of writing the newsletter for a fairly large organization. And she's like, I wish I could just do like a snack. So, the Robinhood Snacks podcast is incredible for anyone who hasn't listened to it. It's just very fun and bubbly. And it's really just, it condenses a daily newsletter into 10 minutes of just really awesome content. That, at first there'll be like, if a company wanted to do something similar, there's a lot of upfront work to be done.
TJ Bonaventura:
And I think that the biggest thing that we always come across is this isn't going to be easy. It's going to be rough. It's going to take a lot of time, but the more you do it, the more consistency you're going to have with knowing when you need to record. How long do you need to edit for. Do I need to offload this, that, or the other to somebody else? And once you get that ball rolling, it's going to be just second nature and part of your day to day. So, I love that idea around the newsletter and creating something in tandem. Again, is that modality.
Anna McClain:
Yeah, totally. And I think it's hard with clients sometimes they want just, can I just have the workflow and the rundown and just tell me exactly what to do when. And it goes back to the, how are you leveraging your team and what is their day to day look like already? And that's something I do a lot of, is just embedding myself and figuring out, okay, what is a realistic production timeline for you? How frequent should the podcast actually be released? And what are you already doing that you can tie into? And I think it does it, I don't want to diminish the work that goes into it upfront because podcast can be a lot of work.
Anna McClain:
And I think it's part of when you're thinking about creating one, I'm actually, I'll tell clients, I want to make sure you really want to do this. Not that you can't just stop if you start. But to really get a return on your investment, it's about creating a sustainable strategy and workflow. And even if that's just a six episode series or something like that. Or maybe it's a daily podcast really understanding what you're getting into and the time that you do need to invest upfront for something that is sustainable long term and really is just part of the day to day work that's going on in your company will really pay off.
TJ Bonaventura:
And if they don't have a project manager internally, who's going to own this. They got someone like you who can do that.
Anna McClain:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Julian Lewis:
With that said, where can potential clients find you what's the best way to reach you?
Anna McClain:
Yeah. So, I'm on LinkedIn. My name on there is Anna Olivia McClain. And I have a website which is aomcclain.com. And I'm always down to talk about anything podcasting related with anyone. I love hearing about people's ideas and concerns, and just the creative ideas people have. It's always fun.
Julian Lewis:
Love it. I think I'm going to start calling you the embedable podcast producer.
Anna McClain:
I like that. I need a good tagline. So, yeah.
Julian Lewis:
Awesome. Well, Anna, thank you so much for joining us on the PodOn Podcast, and we'll make sure to definitely link your information in the show notes.
Anna McClain:
Thank you guys so much. It's been really fun.
TJ Bonaventura:
PodOn. Every episode of the PodOn Podcast is produced and edited by StudioPod Media. For more information about our work and our clients go to studiopodsf.com.
Julian Lewis:
Shout out to Gary Oakland for the fire track.
TJ Bonaventura:
Gary O.
I think it's very daunting to look at the idea of podcasting and say, there are a million podcasts out there. How am I going to stand out. You don't have to stand out against the backdrop of 1 million podcasts.
Julian Lewis:
This is the PodOn Podcast.
TJ Bonaventura:
We're your host, TJ Bonaventura, that's me and Julian Lewis.
Julian Lewis:
That's me. As founders of a podcast media company. We had to start a podcast.
TJ Bonaventura:
So, join us each episode as we and our guests drop knowledge on podcasting for you, the curious and scrappy podcaster.
Julian Lewis:
Welcome to another episode of the PodOn Podcast. Today, we have a special guest, Ms. Anna McClain. Anna, want to go ahead and introduce yourself?
Anna McClain:
Yeah, thanks for having me. My name's Anna McClain and I have my own small podcast production and consulting business in Portland, Oregon. Yeah.
Julian Lewis:
So, we first heard about you on the Pop Podcast and we definitely wanted to reach out and just so people know the Pop Podcast is the podcast on private podcasting. And I remember thinking like, man, JP has a podcast called Pop. Technically we do too, right? Because it's a PodOn Podcast and that's also pop, he just has an extra P. But on that podcast, you were talking a lot about internal podcasts because that's right in the wheelhouse of what storyboard does. But before we dive into how organizations can launch podcasts both internally and externally, how did you even get into podcasting in the first place? And then how did you decide, I want to do this as a consultant on my own?
Anna McClain:
Yeah. So, I think like most podcasters, since it's pretty much very young industry, I got into this in a roundabout way. I started out in college radio and really thought I wanted to go into this kind of music radio world. And after interning with some stations, public and community stations, I got hooked up with a record label in Portland and ended up producing their podcast for them, their a music business podcast, as well as doing some social media and PR and radio work for the label itself. So, that was kind of my first foray into podcasting specifically. And then I just fell in love with it as this medium where gatekeepers weren't as much of a player I guess, and this really accessible medium. So, then I started picking up some clients on the side, just due to the newness of the medium.
Anna McClain:
And this was 2015, so post serial and that benchmark for the podcast boom. But what I found is that I was working as a producer and I found that a lot of clients really needed more hands on holistic help beyond audio and content production. This world without gatekeepers also means that you're navigating this open industry in this way. So, yeah, I just found myself helping client in a lot of different ways and wearing a lot of different hats, I think as a lot of podcasters do. And it's just developed from there.
TJ Bonaventura:
You mentioned gatekeepers there a couple times, given your background in radio, and I'm very curious to hear your perspective on this, because I know Julian and I have our own thoughts on it. What is the biggest difference between working in radio and creating a podcast or having that idea of wanting to create a podcast?
Anna McClain:
Yeah, so most of my extent of my work in the radio world was really music related. And that's part of what I loved about college radio is there were no gatekeepers, nobody telling us what to do. It was kind of this DIY ethos and then yeah, I interned at a couple of different stations. One was a large public radio station and the other was a large community station. And I loved both of my experiences there. But I think it's just inherently, there's a long history of different kinds of standards. There's a lot more bureaucracy and there a lot more maybe for better or worse voices in the mix. And I think with a podcast you just have so much freedom and I have to actually tell a lot of my clients now, you can be more creative with what you're doing here.
Anna McClain:
You don't have to adhere to what you've heard on NPR as great as all that stuff is. You can really think the box here. And one of my formative, after I was in the, thinking I was going to do this radio thing, when I was working on the music business podcast, it was also a radio show. So, it was this interesting balance of creating it as a podcast first and then distributing it to, I think we had nine different and community stations that we were distributing to. And just the standards, not in a bad way, but even just the episode needed to be 59 minutes and 30 seconds long exactly. Things like that. And those little things can really add up I think for people who just want to kind of get their message out there and get their voice heard. So, yeah, now I'm just fully in the podcast world and I love it.
TJ Bonaventura:
I love that specific part you talked about when it comes to creativity. A lot of times we get questions from our clients, I'm sure you do too, where they may say like, how often should I release? How long does it need to be? Can it be this, can it be that? And a lot of times our answer is why not? Is that what you want it to be? There is no formula here of success. You see consistent different structures, you see consistent types of editing styles or hosting styles. But we try to get them to think outside the box, because this is such a piece of clay that can be molded in so many different directions. And I think that's something that Julian and I absolutely love about the industry and where it's going. And I say it in almost every podcast that we have, that we put out. But it's in its toddlership right now, it's past the infancy. We should do like a dollar jar every time I say that.
Julian Lewis:
Definitely.
TJ Bonaventura:
But it's still so new and everyone's like, oh, they're blowing up. It's like, ah, didn't know it's still continually, it's still a lot of uncertainty yet. And we see a lot of big companies like iHeartRadio getting involved, and there are big players in there. And so I think there's a lot of fear in the old school podcasters, if you will, of these old heads coming in and trying to turn it into radio, which is something that I really hope doesn't happen. But it's really good to hear that you have the same thought process of having your clients think outside the box.
Anna McClain:
Absolutely. Yeah. I think you're right on the point with it, with just all those seemingly small details that you would think there would be this real standard that you have to adhere to with frequency, length, all these things. I think there's a lot of misguided myths out there in the podcasting world about those things. And I just encourage anyone who wants to start a podcast. Don't feel like you have to adhere to anything that anyone's doing right now. And on your point with the big players getting into it. I feel optimistic about it. Overall, I think the profile of podcasts have been raised so much in the last five years really. And I just see especially for organizations and businesses who are, are getting into podcasting and especially with internal podcast you can almost ignore some of that stuff that's going on. It's really about you, your brand, your employees and the existing communications that you're already engaging in. So, yeah, like I said, I'm optimistic about it.
Julian Lewis:
That's great. And one thing that I want to touch on for the creativity piece, are there any specific things that you have to say or exercises that you give them so that they will think outside of the box? Because I think it's easy to point to, like here are some examples of podcast that you model off of, and then they could follow that guideline. But are there any exercises or things that you've said to brands or even individuals that are like, try this and then see how it works? I'd love to hear your perspective on that.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. A lot of the shows I work on are interview style, which I think in the podcasting world can get a little bit of shade for being somewhat already done. But I think there's a lot of return for organizations and individuals who want to have these interesting conversations with people. So, what I really encourage every client to do is to really, really, really lean into their niche. To identify that niche and see it as their superpower, because that's another thing that, back to the radio piece, what you can do in this podcasting world is really have a podcast about anything. And I work with a B Corp Executive Recruiter, and that's not necessarily a podcast that's going to be number one on Apple, but it's a great podcast. And he gets to have these great conversations and be this thought leader in his industry.
Anna McClain:
And part of leaning into your niche is really any podcaster, whether you're with an organization or you are an individual, or you're a hobbyist. I'm sure you all have heard this advice a million times, it's identify your audience, identify why you're the person who should be making this podcast, identify what the value is that you're bringing to people. So, I have just the short list of questions with those questions included and a few more before we even get into the branding, the name of the show, the frequency, all of those things, it's really about identifying and answering those questions. And that serves as this touch point along the entire process.
Anna McClain:
When you're thinking about the scope of an episode, does this go back to that value piece for the listener or the audience? And I think that can also spark a lot of creativity in people and I'm working on more and more short episodes. And I think those constraints people want to create, like you all are a 15 minute episode or even a five minute episode. And having that box to work within actually can push people to really get into the content editing side of things, which can create a really interesting product.
Julian Lewis:
I think the restrictions of 15 minutes, that was something that TJ sprung on me and I was like damn, I like to talk. But to your point let's get to the point, let's find a creative way to get there faster. And I think our last episode was nine minutes. And so it's like when we put those constraints on ourselves, like we can start to be more creative and be more concise and to the point. So, building off of that, we're talking a lot about up brands and whether it be an internal or external podcast, what are the biggest needs that you're seeing from your clients in terms of where you're actually able to help beyond just the title of producer, which I know could be a catchall for a lot of different things.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. I think in the broad scope of things, just being someone who can be a trusted source when questions come up is the biggest value that I'm providing at this point. I think there's this, everyone at this point, not everyone, but most people, especially people who want to start podcasts have listened to podcasts before. They have an idea of what they want to do. They have an idea whether it's right or wrong of what goes into it. So, really my biggest value add, I think is really embedding myself with people where I'm meeting them where they're at. I have clients who are super tech savvy, they understand all the equipment, they could put together an equipment list themselves. And then I have clients who have never used a microphone before. So, it's really about meeting them where they're at and just trying to tailor what I'm offering to actually provide good service to everyone I'm working with.
Anna McClain:
I think a lot of podcast companies have sprung up and some of them are really awesome. And some of them aren't necessarily customized is your boutique and their great services. But I think for someone who is new to this market and this industry, and maybe doesn't have some of the traditional production skills or necessarily understand what goes into it, having a conversation with someone who is being very transparent about what goes into this process and the value that they're actually going to provide. That's where I really see myself falling and other people too. And it sounds like you guys are in that camp too.
TJ Bonaventura:
We definitely are. And I think the thing that consistently shocks me or doesn't shock me, but would catch me by surprise is the lack of time that's needed to create even a 15 minute episode or 30 minute episode, and helping anyone who wants to start a podcast really get to the point of, you need to dedicate resources to this. And it's not necessarily monetary resource. It's the time, it's going through restructuring the podcast. So, yes, they think about the things that you've mentioned, cadence, how long it should be. What kind of style. But going into like, okay, let's come up with a plan.
TJ Bonaventura:
What is the value? What is the purpose of this podcast? What is it going to provide the listener? Who is the listener? Are you finding with your clients that fall into the organizational scope that they're just not understanding the purpose of the podcast? How can you get them to the point where like, okay, I want to create a podcast where we're interviewing our leadership team. "Okay. Well, why are you doing that?" I think helping them understand why they're doing it and who's going to listen will ultimately allow them to understand how long it can go for and how many resources they can dedicate. And then ultimately the big ROI question of what is it going to drive to the organization?
Anna McClain:
Yeah, I think the ROI is a huge piece of it, especially when you're working with business people who run on these things. Understandably so. And I think a podcast ROI can be, it's very broad and it's very deep too. But as far as, yeah, working with my clients, I think bringing that niche piece back into it really helps them to help own in on that value. I think when I first start working with a lot of clients, there's these questions of, "Oh, well, what about Apple or Spotify? What about this or that?" And I have to steer them away from it and really set expectations around you're not necessarily going to be number one on Apple, but you will get these amazing benefits out of starting a podcast.
Anna McClain:
And I think those benefits have traditionally not been as clear to people. I think there's this allure of podcasting that's really great and it gets people in the door, but there's this whole other world to the value that a podcast can bring an organization. And I think interestingly enough this pandemic has really started to shift that because companies are understanding more and more that frequent, clear communication with their employees is absolutely critical right now. And podcasting is a really amazing tool accomplishing that. So, it's seen as less this unconventional tool and more as a practical tool now. So, I think there's more of an openness with different brands and leaders around that.
TJ Bonaventura:
And we've heard some interesting concepts around podcasting from that same perspective when thinking about the pandemic, is they can't, like for example, marketing team came to us, like we can't do events, so we need to figure out a way to do events and we have an events team. So, let's create a podcast as a way to drive new leads to our company to then ultimately drive the ROI that way. So, they're thinking about it a little bit differently. We can't do events so why don't we just do a number of different podcasts that will substitute the events and the event budget that we have. And that way we can drive more customers that way, which I think is a great idea and something I never really thought of. But it's just one way where people are starting to think outside the box and definitely different companies here in Silicon Valley are thinking about it.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And one note that I was just going to add to that TJ is depending on the size of the company, there are restrictions to the amount of people that you could have law in any sort of, let's say, Google Hangout, for instance. And so what ends up happening is you're having to then stream it. And so you're not getting that engagement that you would, if it weren't streamed, it was just like a shared screen. Then somebody has to think about like, man, I have to go back to my computer, sit in front of my computer and watch this training if I missed it. But it's like, there's such a value in being able to free your employees to take a lap around the block while they listen to something, that frequent clear communications that, Anna, that you were referencing.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. It's that asynchronous component that I think is so unique to podcasts and doing away with, I think, video is amazing and a lot of instant. But if you're catching up on a training or you're catching up on a webinar or just a meeting, maybe you don't need the video component. And employees are so overburdened right now, it's a really, really hard time to be working from home at all and having more control over your time, multitasking, et cetera, it's the least companies can be doing for their employees right now. It's make it easy for them to check these boxes and make it engaging too. A podcast is unparalleled, you guys know this, the familiarity people feel with the host of a podcast is so strong. And like you said, depending on the size of the company, some of these employees may have never met the host or they might be a high up leader in the organization and it really can humanize and create the feeling of that one-on-one connection without actually having a phone call or a meeting one on one.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And I think to that, like humanizing of that leader within the company, when they're on video, I imagine that they're a little bit more apprehensive of like where their hands are, what they're doing, what they're saying. But when they're in a room by themselves and they're just in front of a mic and they're not having to look at themselves or a large group of people, I imagine that in that moment they're allowed to be more human. And so it's a benefit both for the employees, but also for that leader to really be more human to your employees and let them hear your voice and get to know you a little bit better as they're taking a stroller around the block or getting their workout in.
Anna McClain:
And just back to something TJ said about the idea of this events centered podcast. I think one of the things that organizations can really think about when they're thinking about this is, or consider when they're thinking about this is that they don't have to do everything, accomplish everything in their podcast. Narrowing down and saying, we just want to fill this gap that was created by not being able to have events, or we just want to give a daily run down to our employees about what's going on in the company, or something totally out there. Every organization has a communication strategy that's already in place. How can a podcast expand on that and support that? I think that's really what companies need to be thinking about when they're considering a podcast for their strategy. It's not a standalone piece.
TJ Bonaventura:
I couldn't agree more. Thinking about it as a modality. Like not thinking of it as the center piece of what you're trying to do around that communication strategy. What is it going to be part of the larger benefit of who was going to be listening, whether it's going to be potential clients or whether it's going to be employees internally. I was actually having this thought the other where I was thinking about from a training and onboarding perspective, where if you wanted to use podcasting as a modality in that way, a great opportunity to do that would be around setting the culture. So, I think we've all been in these situations, I know I have. I have where you're going on site for training and the first or the first half day is you're spending, learning about the company where it came from, what the culture is, how it came about, what are the idea, all this, that, and the other about, the basics and the concepts of the organization.
TJ Bonaventura:
To me, I feel like that would be a great opportunity to convert that into a podcast, an internal podcast, maybe potentially external. But most likely internal. And I think the benefits would be twofold. One that's something that can be listened to outside of a pandemic world, you listen to that on the bus, train or plane on the way in. So, you already have that background. Two you're setting the standard of podcasting as being a part of the culture. So, as you have people join the organization, now you have them downloading a private at app like Storyboard, or maybe it's something that's been customized for that organization. And so now that new employee knows whatever they want to listen to something or get something that's being produced via podcast, they know where to go to get it. So, you're setting that groundwork of how the company is communicating with their employees.
Anna McClain:
Totally. I think hiring too has been so disrupted right now that ... Yeah. Any tools that again, can humanize and convey that culture and make someone feel, it comes back to employee engagement, which I know every company out there is wanting to accomplish. Engaged employees are way more successful. The companies are way more successful when they have engaged employees. And I think podcasting is one piece of that. You can have podcasts that feature employees and employee accomplishments, that feature teams who are doing different things there are a million ways to recognize employees and really bring them into the conversation. It's not necessarily just a one sided talking at you kind of thing. It's a lot more engaging than that.
TJ Bonaventura:
And it gets back to the question of why not. I think oftentimes these leaders who are, or those within companies who want to start a podcast, well, we got to do it like this, because this is how the industry has done things in the past. We can't do something like serial. We can't do something like this other podcast. It's like, well, why not? Why can't you create a fun serialized podcast or put your little play on it where the benefit is the company is learning or the employee is learning something about the company or the end result is they need to take a survey and it's some sort of end result that can be tracked.
TJ Bonaventura:
I think that's a big part of the ROI. Like, okay, well, you need to answer this survey. You need to fill out this form or whatever it may be. Those are things that you can add in the show notes that show value there. Again, that's where I think, again, the toddlership comes into play and really getting these creative people in the communications department to think outside of the box and find those people within the organization who could really be that gem of a host that would really engage anybody that they're talking to.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I think that point about the ROI and specifically the call to action is a place where I really, really encourage clients to be creative. There's no reason to tell people, to find your podcast on Apple or to leave you a review. It's really from that infancy side of podcasting. Where can you really put that value in the call to action? What do you want people to do next? That's huge. And yeah, I just wanted to echo that.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And I don't want to make this, I know we you've said Storyboard or JP multiple times throughout this, and I don't want to make this like a branded podcast for him. But one thing I do want to say is, I think it was just yesterday, they just released the ability for you to comment at a particular timestamp. And it's like, you can get employees engaged and to comment and like, or whatever it is, like engage with your content and know what's working, what's not working. And we talked a little bit about that when we were talking about the Goals podcast. Because you could see where there's drop off, but now if somebody can say like, "hey," at the five minute mark, "I really loved learning about this. Can we go deeper into this?" And then you can start to craft your podcasts and your content around what your employees are asking for.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I think something that's important for every company who's getting into this is those performance indicators, if you will, whether it's the call to action that someone's clicking on and they can track that. There's always that hunger for really robust stats in podcasting and I think it's getting a lot better, but it's always one of those expectations I sat with my clients right off the bat. It's like, you're not going to get everybody's email necessarily, unless you're maybe going through a different service or RSS feed. But it's that broadening of the ROI, which is both tangible and intangible. So, that's always an interesting conversation, is what are "good stats" for a niche podcast? And I think it really depends on every different case.
TJ Bonaventura:
It's also depending on and understanding the difference between quantity of listeners and quality of listeners. This is more for brand awareness type of podcast out there where it's, well, if you're talking about something that's specific to your company and you're in B2B sales or you're a software here in Silicon Valley, you're not going to get the hundreds of thousands, millions of listens. You may get like hundreds of listens, but know what? If those hundreds of listens are people that are coming back and time and time again, that's going to be more valuable to you than broadening the scope. I think that's where, like you said, leaning into your niche, leaning into what's bringing value to you and what's important to the overall goal of the podcast in terms of what you're trying to accomplish as a company.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. And TJ, to that point, I worked for an agency back in the day and there's this large insurance brand that was trying to compete with the likes of Flo on Progressive in Mayhem for All State. And this is back when Facebook was all about driving up likes and how many likes can you get? You know what I mean? And with podcasting to your point about the quality versus the quantity, you can tell the quantity easily. But the quality is all about how deep of a conversation are you able to have with your listeners if it's a branded podcast or with your employees, if it's an internal podcast and making sure that not only are you monitoring based off of that quality, but then you're engaging back with them. Whether it be like responding back to things that they're asking for, or starting to surface some of that content that they really enjoy the most.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. And it's understanding, what is the goal that you're even working towards in the first place? And that goes for internal and, or like external public branded podcasts. What is a hundred thousand listeners going to really get you? Maybe your goal is really to bring on new clients and have interesting conversations and gain some brand awareness. And that doesn't all necessarily have to fall under this quantity side of things. It could really be under the quality side. And it is about capturing maybe more of a percentage of your potential audience, understanding who is your potential audience. Not everyone is going to be your potential audience and that could be true for an internal podcast too. Maybe there's one team who the company wants to focus on and have this podcast relate to, or maybe it's just a podcast that really is about surveying remote employees. Or the niche part is exactly what you just said about the value that you see in it, but also the value that your listeners or audience are going to get out of it.
TJ Bonaventura:
I think too often, and it's many times marketers are the one leading the charge for podcasting both internally and externally. They think about it as like a drip campaign. And that's how they've got brought up with a new organization. Like, okay, well, the more people we get, the more we can get them down the funnel, the more people that we can convert. It's not necessarily like that. I really think podcasting is down the funnel type of process of you have people who are already committed to your business or learning about your business and already thinking about working with your business, use that and reach them. Really lean into how you're going to help them and then they'll become customers or maybe they'll renew with you or whatever. I think that's really where you need to think about podcasting from an organizational standpoint. I don't know if you agree with that or not, Anna.
Anna McClain:
Absolutely. I think that's one of the reasons that podcasting has been such a huge success in the financial services industry, because it really allows financial advisors to show potential clients what they're like. You're working really closely with this person. It gives a sense of familiarity to potential clients who might already be thinking about working with you. It also goes into the discoverability piece of it where I don't see Spotify, Apple, some of the big players, not to keep calling them out by name, but they can handle it. I don't see them as valuable discoverability tools for my particular clients. I always encourage clients to go, where is your audience already living? Where are they spending their time? Maybe they don't even know what a podcast is yet, but they might know about your brand, or they might know about this industry specific magazine or this industry specific event. It's really about actually thinking about where your audience is.
Anna McClain:
And that goes all the way down the line to that closing call to action. If you just want some brand awareness out of it, what are you asking people to do at the end? If you want a new client out of it, maybe you're asking people to sign up for your newsletter or website or contact you for additional services. Clients don't need to think about it as swimming in this huge pool. You can think about it as swimming in your industry and being an industry leader in the podcasting space. So, I think that's important for new clients to understand. I think it's very daunting to look at the idea of podcasting and say, there are a million podcasts out there, how am I going to out? You don't have to stand out against the backdrop of one million podcasts.
Julian Lewis:
That's exactly right. I guess my question for you and we talked about the iHearts of the world, Spotifys, Apples of the world, for an individual podcaster, do you see that there's a value for brands entering the space and creating their own podcast? And if so, what do you think that value is?
Anna McClain:
For brands entering the space. As far as like these trying to be in this like a player in these bigger things. I think that they can be very successful, but I guess it still goes back to the, what are you hoping to get out of this? If you're Squarespace and creating a podcast, that's a different starting point than maybe a different brand. I think that there is an opportunity for brands to be the presenting sponsor, if you will, for maybe a more creative show. There are some amazing voices out there that need that financing and need to also keep their creative control. I think that's something that's really important about podcasts. It doesn't have to feel canned and it doesn't have to be stifled in this certain way. And brands can have this opportunity maybe to back an independent podcaster. Not that, that would make them in anymore, but that's just me riffing on it. But I think there is opportunities for ... The brand doesn't have to be the creative force necessarily behind the show. I guess it's the bottom line.
Julian Lewis:
I think you answered that much better than I asked it. But I think the value of more and more brands seeing the value of potentially starting a podcast is that there are plenty of powerful and strong creators that are doing it on their own. And they can really partner together to really up level the entire industry. And that's potentially more ad dollars or more sponsorship dollars or more partnership deals for that individual contributor as much it is for the brand. So, I think it's only going to help the overall industry.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I will just add a note, because it's been in the news lately and coming from the music industry, I think it's really important for independent creators to really hold onto their IP around this stuff. And for brands who are looking to partner with individuals around podcasting to be responsible about those contracts too. And it really is more of a partnership and you don't need to necessarily own that IP to make a great podcast and be part of a great show.
TJ Bonaventura:
Couldn't agree with you more on there. I'm glad you mentioned that. I want to pivot real quick and talk about, we've touched on creativity a bunch. What are some of the creative ways that you've seen your clients leverage podcasts? And you don't need to go into specifics, but maybe like how they go to structure it, doing something a little bit different and outside of the box, as you mentioned a little earlier.
Anna McClain:
Yeah. Well, I can talk about one very specific example that, I mean, it's just an episode that was released today that I was working on. And speaking of boxes and constraints, this pandemic has created a lot of them. So, that executive hiring podcast I was just talking about, we did a panel recently where we had this whole team who virtually hired someone, basically talking through the process. It was a little bit of a departure from our usual format, but we took the chance to say, let's do something different. And I think that's something any podcaster can do is just say, I want to switch it up a little bit this week, try something new, see how it goes. And especially when there are wild things happening in the world, it's really important. And I think the last few months have really presented a lot of opportunities for that.
Anna McClain:
We were talking ahead of this a little bit about just some of the things that are going on in the world and how podcasters can respond to that. And something that I've seen a lot with people and clients and have been navigating for the first time in the last, in my career in podcasting, we have these two hugely world changing events happening right now. And something that comes up a lot with podcasters is how do I balance timeliness with evergreen content? And what I'm just really encouraging my clients to do is not see them as mutually exclusive right now. We're living in a, like I said, a changing time.
Anna McClain:
And it's really important I think from my perspective, at least I think every niche is being affected by everything that's going on right now. And there's something to be said on every podcast. Maybe not an audio drama, but I think there's a lot of creative possibilities there. And I think a lot of podcasters can take this time to reflect on what they've been doing and maybe switch it up and use it as a chance to change things up.
Julian Lewis:
I love that you brought up the current in events versus evergreen because people see them as separate things, but to your point, they're not. And in every current event, there's a lesson to be learned that can be evergreen. And with what's going on right now we talked about the pandemic with all the racial injustice issues that are happening in the world, this is really a good opportunity for a company to uplift some of the voices that have been silent or have been underrepresented and really allow for them to come forward and really speak to that. And I honestly haven't seen a brand do that quite yet. But I definitely think it's something that they should really think about.
TJ Bonaventura:
Or just have leadership address any issue through a recording. It's one thing to see a public notice. I think we've all experienced different organizations and how they've responded to everything that's going on. And it's either going to be a public statement or it's an email that's sent in. Who knows who wrote that? Who knows if that's really what leadership stands for? Why not can make that a podcast? Why not make that an internal message where people can actually hear the inflection in someone's voice, where they can get more of a reality of what they're dealing with? And that's racial injustice, that's pandemic, that's dealing with everyone being remote. It's working moms and dads with kids at home. These are all things that everyone are dealing with. And again, audio empowering, clear audio is such a good way to get across that message versus some sort of what could potentially come across as a tone, deaf message via email.
Anna McClain:
Totally. And I think it opens, having real conversations with real voices, opens people up to, especially on the racial justice, these conversations really require some vulnerability, especially when you're looking at brands and organizations who actually want to make change for the better. And I think having those conversations over a podcast is a great medium for that. And even outside of that, I think there are opportunities for even like DEI trainings and things through podcasts, something as dry as that. But there could be real actual conversations there. And I think I just started working with the client and part of the catalyst, I think for them to start their podcast, they're in the nonprofit world, was due to an incident, not within their organization, but with another organization and wanting to have real conversations around that and have a space for it where they weren't finding that space in their existing communications. So, I thought that was really, really interesting. And I really respect that inclination, I guess, trying to think of a better word.
TJ Bonaventura:
It's a great way to open up the hood behind a company and really let yourself be raw and vulnerable. I think oftentimes companies don't do that. They got to be buttoned up. They have a board, they have advisors, they have objectives, KPIs, numbers they got to hit quarter over quarter. But sometimes being vulnerable and sometimes letting yourself be open to criticism is actually good and will lead to more of that employee engagement and empowerment to, you know what, I'm really happy I worked for this company. Because while maybe they made a mistake, they owned up to it and this is how they owned up to it, or know what they believe in doing this. And this is how they're making the change. And those are things again that sometimes they can get lost in the email or they can get lost in just everyday conversation. And if you can really get the raw emotion of whomever is making that message is going to go leaps and bounds over any other medium, in my opinion, at least.
Julian Lewis:
Yeah. The human element that we were talking about earlier. You assume it's a lot less vetted by PR and policy team when it comes from the voice versus from the written note. I want to quickly pivot, I know we're running long on time. And for this podcast, I think there's been so much valuable information that anybody could take from this and run with. And specifically for that curious and scrappy podcaster at an organization. How should they advocate to bring it to their organization? Or what can they do to really say to their head of X, like, hey, we should be doing a podcast?
Anna McClain:
Yeah. I think there are two main points there. One is what we've already touched on. As pitching it as part of the organization's larger communication strategy. It's much less daunting to think about starting a podcast when you already have a newsletter, a blog. There are already tie-ins, there's already work that your teams are already putting in to create great content. A podcast can be one more step in that. And the other side of it is, and this ties into budget too. I think for bigger companies, it's less of a concern, but no matter what you can ... and back the standards piece too, and the creativity piece actually, it's really figuring out how you can leverage your resources and your existing team to create a podcast. And it is very doable. It's just a matter of identifying everyone's skills and strengths and really figuring out, okay, what do we have covered and what do we need help with? And I think that's huge because any organization with any budget can make it happen. It's just a matter of getting creative about how you're doing it.
TJ Bonaventura:
I love the newsletter point of view that you mentioned, because this is, I had a conversation with a friend who is in charge of writing the newsletter for a fairly large organization. And she's like, I wish I could just do like a snack. So, the Robinhood Snacks podcast is incredible for anyone who hasn't listened to it. It's just very fun and bubbly. And it's really just, it condenses a daily newsletter into 10 minutes of just really awesome content. That, at first there'll be like, if a company wanted to do something similar, there's a lot of upfront work to be done.
TJ Bonaventura:
And I think that the biggest thing that we always come across is this isn't going to be easy. It's going to be rough. It's going to take a lot of time, but the more you do it, the more consistency you're going to have with knowing when you need to record. How long do you need to edit for. Do I need to offload this, that, or the other to somebody else? And once you get that ball rolling, it's going to be just second nature and part of your day to day. So, I love that idea around the newsletter and creating something in tandem. Again, is that modality.
Anna McClain:
Yeah, totally. And I think it's hard with clients sometimes they want just, can I just have the workflow and the rundown and just tell me exactly what to do when. And it goes back to the, how are you leveraging your team and what is their day to day look like already? And that's something I do a lot of, is just embedding myself and figuring out, okay, what is a realistic production timeline for you? How frequent should the podcast actually be released? And what are you already doing that you can tie into? And I think it does it, I don't want to diminish the work that goes into it upfront because podcast can be a lot of work.
Anna McClain:
And I think it's part of when you're thinking about creating one, I'm actually, I'll tell clients, I want to make sure you really want to do this. Not that you can't just stop if you start. But to really get a return on your investment, it's about creating a sustainable strategy and workflow. And even if that's just a six episode series or something like that. Or maybe it's a daily podcast really understanding what you're getting into and the time that you do need to invest upfront for something that is sustainable long term and really is just part of the day to day work that's going on in your company will really pay off.
TJ Bonaventura:
And if they don't have a project manager internally, who's going to own this. They got someone like you who can do that.
Anna McClain:
Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Julian Lewis:
With that said, where can potential clients find you what's the best way to reach you?
Anna McClain:
Yeah. So, I'm on LinkedIn. My name on there is Anna Olivia McClain. And I have a website which is aomcclain.com. And I'm always down to talk about anything podcasting related with anyone. I love hearing about people's ideas and concerns, and just the creative ideas people have. It's always fun.
Julian Lewis:
Love it. I think I'm going to start calling you the embedable podcast producer.
Anna McClain:
I like that. I need a good tagline. So, yeah.
Julian Lewis:
Awesome. Well, Anna, thank you so much for joining us on the PodOn Podcast, and we'll make sure to definitely link your information in the show notes.
Anna McClain:
Thank you guys so much. It's been really fun.
TJ Bonaventura:
PodOn. Every episode of the PodOn Podcast is produced and edited by StudioPod Media. For more information about our work and our clients go to studiopodsf.com.
Julian Lewis:
Shout out to Gary Oakland for the fire track.
TJ Bonaventura:
Gary O.